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Course of Mind
Course of Mind
Learning first, technology second
When it comes to learning, technology isn’t always an enhancement. Static images can sometimes be better than video, and Powerpoint presentations can often be a hindrance. It is about how we use the technology. Not even the most cutting-edge technology can help students learn if it’s not used correctly. The principles of how people retain information remain constant whether the information is coming from a textbook or virtual reality. In this installment of Course of Mind, Dr. Cris Castro from the Center for Advanced Research in Education at the Universidad de Chile talks about learning research that offers guidelines for how to use multimedia technology in the classroom. Cris stresses the importance of applying learning science principles while using technology as well as having a firm grasp on students’ knowledge and what they need to learn.
This podcast is produced by NarayanKripa Sundararajan (@KripaSundar) as part of the Course of Mind project, an ISTE initiative made possible in part by a grant from the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative DAF, an advised fund of Silicon Valley Community Foundation.
You're an educator in the 21st century. You're listening to a podcast from ISTE. Those two facts make it all the more likely you used a piece of multimedia in the recent past. Maybe it was a cool animation. Maybe you pull the Khan Academy video. Maybe you set up a station rotation in a modified flipped classroom model with prepared slideshows or video demos you spend hours crafting. Here's the question though. What role did the learning sciences have in your decisions and approach to using multimedia in the classroom? Hi, I'm Shana white and I'm Zac Chase and this is of course of mind, the learning sciences podcast form ISTE. In this episode, we interviewed Dr Cris Castro from the Center for Advanced Research and education at the University of Dodd de Chile. We asked Cris to help us understand what research in the learning sciences can teach us about the use of multimedia to improve learning and teaching. We also learned about cognitive load theory and how it can help educators make instructional decisions and better design learning experiences for their students.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Welcome to course of mind.
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Speaker 1:Cris Castro. Hello. Thank you very much for being on course of mind. It's great to have you.
Speaker 3:Thanks. Thanks you Zac and Shana. Very interesting to be here.
Speaker 1:Our listeners who in most cases will probably be practitioners in the classroom. Could you basically explain to us how technology can help or hinder the learning process for students?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well in general I see technology as an, and if we, if we go to the core of the meaning of technology is really just a tool. So Technology's tool using tools. So any technologies like a, I don't know, like another tool like it textbook for example. So you can have good textbooks or bad textbooks. It's not that technology is going to help you just because it's technology. So technology has to have a clear goal, educational goal in mind to be a good technology for learning. Otherwise it could be, eh, do nothing like most of the cases or even be counterproductive to learning. So yeah,
Speaker 1:let me jump in there. So I work at the district level, um, and what we tend to do is, um, have teachers who ask for kind of, can I have this technology? And they, they generally speaking don't have a specific, they want a tool that does a lot of things or that can do a lot of things. And it sounds like that's not the way to go or is that sometimes okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah. For example, if we talk about power point, which is a kind of a common technology, Eh, there are many studies showing that using PowerPoint is not good for learning. So it's not using or not using PowerPoint, but how to use it. And that's where cognitive load theory or the cognitive theory of multimedia learning, they come in handy because they, they give you guidelines how to design any educational material, but mostly multimedia to improve their learning processes in the classroom. Or when learners are learning through videos in the computer, for example, things like that.
Speaker 4:So PowerPoint is not good. I just want to know.
Speaker 5:Um, so, so Chris, is that the message there that we should take away is the PowerPoint is not good or
Speaker 3:any technologies or tools. So PowerPoint is a tool. It's been, Eh, I dunno, it has about 20 or 30 years of development. So the tool, the PowerPoint is better than 20 or 30 years before. But Eh, teachers generally don't, Eh, use it efficiently so they could use it much better if they want to take, um, use PowerPoint for a educational, uh, good educational achievement. So the take home messages, PowerPoint can be better.
Speaker 4:I like that. Um, I think of it also, um, with another Microsoft tool is excel is a lot of people don't understand the robust nature behind excel. And I think the same could be said for something like PowerPoint. Um, that tool has been around for a very long time. And as you mentioned before, it's Kinda like it's just a tool, but it's how are you using it or how are you implementing it in class and what's the rationale or reasoning behind your implementation? Correct.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's, that's the idea. Yeah.
Speaker 5:So are there, are there some, some, some common fault, uh, that you would say, oh, teachers, uh, if, uh, these are kind of, they're common uses of technology that actually stand in the way of learning.
Speaker 3:Yeah. For example, if was continuing to get about power point, which is kind of broad technology, so that will help a lot of people. I suppose one bad use of typical bad use of PowerPoint is to have slides with full of text and then the teacher just reads the text aloud. If, if we are eh, giving those kinds of lectures to university students who are high, high school students that are already very efficient in reading, they don't need to read and listen to what the teacher is saying. So instead of having a slide full of texts and then reading it, Eh, for example, you could put Eh, Eh, visualization and emailage and animation in the PowerPoint. And then the teacher is explain it verbally. So he talks or she talks, but students don't read, they, they only see visualizations or images. So that would be a better way to, to go those not feeling the whole slide with text. That's the one bad. And even worse than that is reading the, the slides.
Speaker 4:That's super interesting. And the reason I say that is actually my daughter, um, she is a fourth grader. She's actually working on our genius hour project and that's what I was doing. Um, once we got home, she wanted to present it to me and she had a bunch of texts on her slides because her teacher just Kinda said, you know, put a picture in the background and then talk about what you're going to say, but put it in text on the sides. And I was like, no, like your slides should be very visually appealing and you should know the information that you can just tell them what that slide is about. I think she's talking about articles, um, which she had written all of her like data points on the slide. And I was just kinda like, if I'm listening to your presentation, I'm not going to be engaged because I'm probably either going to be focusing reading on the slide myself or tuning you out. Um, because I'm focused on reading the side of myself. So that makes like a huge point. And I'm actually gonna tell my daughter that now.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I just talked to somebody who can, who can set you straight on that one. That's it. You just helped with homework, Chris. That's pretty great. Um, so let me ask you then is the theory of how this all works, that if I put an image up there and then there's the teacher is delivering an audio explanation out loud, is the image helping to kind of encode that information in the brain and for memory retrieval? Like okay, I can associate this image with what I've heard auditorily or is there a different, a different mechanism at play? No, no one,
Speaker 3:that's the idea that that's called dual fill. A dual coding theory. It's Pi Vios theory. It's from the 1970s so a on recently it's been called, for example, the multimedia principle that you learn better when you get a images and verbal information. So ideally you get them in two channels, auditorily and visually. So combining the two sources is better for learning, provided that the image is proper. And that's another issue. If we use images. For example, a mayor Richard Mayer has used for a long time and this about a metrology topic about lighting formation whole. So how lighting is form, you know, the clouds, they charge the electrical charges, whatever. If you, Eh, put an email of a lightning, eh, in a photograph that only shows the other, maybe somebody burned by your lighting, that's nothing to do with the cause and effect of the lining. So that would restrict you. So you have to be very careful of what images you're using because you teachers and many designers tend to to boot Eh, interesting things or eh, beautiful things you know, that convey your attention. They distract you away from the main learning Corp.
Speaker 6:So make the thing the thing. Right. So, so in that, yeah, so it's showing somebody who has been previously struck by lightning and that that image is going to be jarring, but it isn't going to help me. It's, it doesn't tell me anything about how that lightning was formed.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's, that's it. That's idea. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay. How does that impact, um, the usage of like virtual reality or augmented reality in a classroom? Because those images are going to be even more like impressive, uh, for students, um, or people engaging in a lesson. How does that either help or hinder, um, learning material when teachers implement VR ar, ar in their classroom?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a tricky one because VR in general has a lot of extra information to, to the learning core. And that's a little against community, low theory,[inaudible] theory of multimedia learning. And in fact, may your has been researching recently about the, these things for VR. So for example, comparing VR versus a, we could say now an old multimedia type learning. So you use a VR versus learning from a computer even you're watching any interest in PowerPoint or whatever multimedia on in those cases, that would be our has much more because it has much more information we show it is appealing, but it distracts you away from the core thing that you need to learn. So the, the important thing, Tom Message he is, is that I need, yeah, it's always a um, a balance. So you need something interesting to engage your audience, your learners. But then if it's too interesting of has many features that are not the core learning topic that you want to come by, then it's going to be distracting.
Speaker 6:So I'm a, if I'm a teacher listening to this, then the parameters you've just given me are make it interesting but not too much. How, how do I translate that into like a Shana, what grade is your daughter in? My daughter is in fourth grade, so how if I'm a fourth grade teacher, do I translate that kind of into a metric of, okay, but how do I, now how do I build my, let's say Google slides, let's not keep trashing on Microsoft, let's move to a new product. How do I, how do I translate that into practice?
Speaker 3:It's a very difficult balance. First you need to know your audience, so you need to know maybe testing your, your students for example, so testing them and knowing how much they know about certain topics. If they already know many things about the topic, you could go around the putting more information and more information and because it's not going to hinder because they already know about that so they can manage these extra seductive information. I'll, it can be an class, they can get out of the classroom being very thrilled by the topic because he was very engaging, et cetera. And they learn because they already had many eh, information already in their working memories, in their longterm memories. In those cases, Eh, you have to try to keep it the all seduction on appeal.
Speaker 4:So you mentioned that balance. I guess fourth grade is going to be different as you mentioned before, because that's the age that they're actually intaking a lot more knowledge. Whereas when you're talking about maybe like a high school, junior or Sophomore, um, a lot of that knowledge base should already be there. So it's that implementation of the more ar, VR, um, visually stimulating, um, approaches to learning, uh, might be more impactful. But I guess at, for a classroom teacher, uh, with their practice in general, is there a, a typical balance as far as like how you can continue to keep kids, you know, engage, but then also you're still getting the learning across. Like, I don't want to say percentages, but like if a teacher has maybe teaching that lesson on lightening as you mentioned before, how would that look for a fourth grade teacher in comparison to maybe like a ninth grade teacher? As far as like the balance between the multimedia and the actual like informative information.
Speaker 3:I would say that the, the main thing is to measure them beforehand. So at the beginning of the semester, that class, whatever or maybe more frequently, so once a month, once a month. So you need to, to know how much your students know. And that's also very interesting too. That's another, that's not my area. But assessment and feedback and things like that are very useful for, for learning. So having that information you can, Eh, have an idea of, okay, they know somehow something about this area so I can incorporate more VR or most active things because they already know the basics. But if they don't know the basics, um, then maybe even, eh, using, I don't know, a textbook or f or something less multimedia or less engaging could go, could work better.
Speaker 5:So it sounds like find the, find the level of the kids and then design the media to those key to whoever those kids are in your, in your classroom.
Speaker 3:That would be like a summary of Coney Dillow theory because they have a cognitive low theorists have, one is called the expertise reversal effect. So if you have experts, they kind of get bored by a very, um, too much information or fancy things that they already know. Their expertise, reversal effect of cognitive load theory is one thing that deals with this experts versus novices, things, Eh, differences. So for example, and obvious needs less information because if he gets he or she gets too much information, he's going to be overwhelmed by, by this extra information, but a more expert can go away with it. So you have to design differently if you are designing for novices or for experts.
Speaker 4:I'm curious because I know math is always a hugely in highly debated topic in most public schools. How does this, uh, technology and multimedia impact math as far as, um, learning outcomes? And then also, I know a lot of times in lower grades there's a lot of usage of manipulatives, uh, and a lot less once you get to higher grades. How does this kind of multimedia technology play a role with math learning?
Speaker 3:Yeah. For example, it says you're mentioning monopolar dips when one, once you're using manipulatives, you are, um, to, to say it simply, you are putting the load, I mean the processing activity of your mind, you're putting in your fingers in your hands so you have more mind to deal with difficult topics. So generally manipulatives are good because it's kind of saying that you have more mind to work around this, Eh, tasks, maths in this case and but then is this expression expertise reversal effect. If you are novice, that could be, that could help you, but then it's if you get to Eh, to uh, to a higher degree or you are more knowledgeable on these topics, then using your hands you may get bored or distracted because you don't need these extra resources of the, of the hands. So, yeah, generally to learn to when you're a novice and you're learning some math topics or any science or whatever topic, using manipulatives or gesturing could help you
Speaker 5:Shana in your own practice. And in mine, in my district and all my teachers, they're usually dealing with a really wide variety of learners and background knowledge and ability. So you've got a classroom that may have, I dunno, 28 kids in it and some of them may be at that expert range of, of, of pieces and some of them may be at the novice range of pieces. What's the recommendation for selecting some multimedia to help all of those kids be able to move forward with their learning? Or do we, do we say at that point actually go with the more novice or do we go with more complicated or how, how do teachers make those selections?
Speaker 3:I'm assuming good teachers already know the answer and they already have this problem and they have several ways to solve it. For example, the grouping in the classroom in different ability groups or maybe putting a, an expert in each of their groups, but that also, um, well that's kind of a Montessori way of doing things. So you put experts and novices and the experts help the novices, but then the materials, the multimedia materials should be tailored to novices or maybe you give an extra thing to the experts so everybody gets challenged and not bored. And in those cases, yeah, maybe, maybe the, the short answer is to, um, to help the novices. So yeah, I would say that that would be the, like the short answer held the novices, but, but keep in mind that the experts maybe get bored.
Speaker 4:So differentiation, differentiation is just key even with using multimedia, um, in the classroom with learning, which as you mentioned, most teachers have an understanding, I would say general for most, um, an understanding of what differentiation looks like. But I think that that's huge for you to bring out the point that the multimedia aspect for somebody who's an expert is going to impact their learning a lot differently than it would be for novice.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And, and the thing here is that, eh, this differentiation has, has to keep the focus on the knowledge. The students already have the prior knowledge because other types of differentiations, for example, those, uh, called learning styles. So differentiating, eh, pudding, many visuals versus many verbal information or those types of learning styles, the literature is not very, um, positive on, on the learning style. So learners,
Speaker 5:I'm a little worried when I hear learning style.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, maybe you already know one and the audience of this podcast already know about that, but it's always good to, to remind everyone. Yes.
Speaker 5:Just for the handful that don't know, let's, let's say it out loud.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Learning styles are not good, are not backed up by research. So instead of, Eh, having two multimedia in that are different because one is for say visuals on the other ones is for auditory learners that that's a quote quirky rate. It's better to have one for novices and one for experts.
Speaker 5:So I wonder, thinking about research, um, and I would imagine that there are in fact some, some listeners who who think, oh, but I like learning styles and who might be jarred. And that is new information around the, the element of quackery, which is, which is a pretty good way to, to describe, uh, all of that. But I wondering where have you been surprised in your own research? What's, what are some findings that you've, you've either done in your own research or, or read about in the, in the papers of others that he, that, oh, I just know what I expected.
Speaker 3:I started doing a multimedia designing multimedia and video on Eh, yeah. Um, powerpoints, even considering all the visual things. So this is appealing. This font is better than these phones or it's better to have a large for them. And I was based on risks, on research or even on just guidelines of designers of Internet for example. And then I came, um, I discover this topics, uh, about educational psychology and about how to improve multimedia. But from an educational psychological point. So many things where, Eh, wow, this is, this is really something, this is really based on something I remember you Kelly. So I like evidence and quantitative data and things like that. So wow, this is really based on something that was experimentally compared and and eh, to to mention some examples, Eh, I must assume now a little embarrassed. I uh, I started a looking for these learning styles and try to find some differences between which visuals and auditory. And then I realized that the evidence showed that the, the learning styles are not research based. And another thing, for example, in cognitive load theory, which is very typical and leads kind of related to learning styles, is that there's this principle and it's also used in cognitive theory of multimedia learning called it, it's called the redundancy principle or effect that says that what we've been discussing now, if you add information to something that may be the tremendol instead of being positive, that the typical thing that you could imagine if you don't know anything about research is okay, since I have a visual and May, I may have some variable learners or maybe since I have a, I don't know, students that read poorly and and other students that read more in a more fast speed. Okay. I'll put a lot of words for those students I like to read and I'll add some images for those students that are visuals and then I'm going to talk or I may record something for those that are variable. So you are many things in a slide or in a multimedia thinking. Okay. With all this simultaneous information I'm going to Eh, help everyone in the classroom. No Sir. You've given everybody that you've talked about everybody's style at that point. Yeah, but that's what cognitive know theory is saying. Okay, don't do that. That's redundant. If you're putting the same information, two different Eh, visual formats, that's going to be redundant. That's going not going to help that. That's going to hinder learning is going to be too much information to, to learn. You're going to get distracted by that.
Speaker 6:I heard from somewhere and I admit to not remembering if I read this and an actual piece of research or if this was handed to me verbally, but I heard somewhere that you want to stay at two modes a, right, so visual and audio, um, or visual and text but not three. The three starts to encroach on the brain's ability to really take away something from, from that stuff
Speaker 3:that, yeah, that, that could be related to a, the redundancy principle on the[inaudible]. Another one that is related to is called this[inaudible] effect of cognitive load theory and a, if we are talking only about visual and verbal or visual verbal on all the Tori. Yeah, generally it's better to have only two of those, but is the proof the most preferred format in, in this case, he's verbally on auditory. So, Eh, trying to avoid having too much information in your eyes but having some information in your eyes and some information in your ears. And that would be the modality effect.
Speaker 6:So one, one last kind of piece here. As teachers are using more video, uh, in the classroom, is there anything that we've learned from the, from understanding multimedia tools that are some kind of caveats or good rules to live by around thinking about the use of the video to help, um, learners?
Speaker 3:Yeah. One thing that I, then we, we have been researching this last five years is called is related to what is calling the transients information effect. So that is not, it's, it's very counter intuitive, but eh, and there are some, of course, boundary conditions, but what we've researched is that study images, they all styles studying images are better than video or animations. So the important thing there is that when, when you use animations or videos that are very transient or very long and that's bitten, that's not better than having a short term videos or videos that are, that have the capacity of being paused and then resumed. And when you remember the old hold islands,
Speaker 6:that is, that is kind of earth shaking to me. Yeah. Uh, the, the static images are, are shown to be more effective in helping the learning and that and that. Okay. Keep going. I'm sorry, I'm just, I'm processing in here that yeah.
Speaker 3:In fact, the way that that paper got some attention because of that, um, Eh, the thing is that we use, yeah, we, we, we used very, uh, for example it was a memory task and it was very transient. So you, you had to conditions was you were trying to memorize symbols in different places and they were, um, the, this was a transient video so the symbols appeared and disappeared and you had to remember where they were placed versus watching these symbols. Studiedly so they were there for the whole time. So in those conditions, transient versus non transient, we found that studying images were better and we found that that the more time passed, watching this transcend information. So the more symbols you had to memorize, so the longer you were watching the animation there was so in it that was aligned with with our own predictions of the transfer information effect. Wow. What I want to see here is that translated information that could be animation or could be a talking, talking aloud. For example, in the classroom when the teacher talks, if that doesn't stop or you don't use or don't give some time to the students to, to process that information, that is going to disappear.
Speaker 6:Okay. I'm going to be really unscientific here and say that perhaps the thing that you need to be able to do or we need to be able to do as teachers is watch out to see if people are bored or confused and to to pause and check and be like, are you interested in what I'm saying right now?
Speaker 3:Yeah. The tricky thing there is that students already know how to fake the, you know, being interested.
Speaker 6:Okay.
Speaker 3:I was a student, so I know other than you were also. So we all know when to watch the faces of the teacher when not torture, et cetera. And I don't know, sometimes if you are too interested, the teachers ask you too many questions. So that's, it's a tricky thing. So yeah, research is, is, is trying now to, to find, for example, a body posture of students. So different ways that you can tell, okay these students are engaged or these are not engaged because, and maybe give the those information to the teacher. But I think what what you're saying is that is a good ideas. The teachers could stop and ask if, well maybe the students can still fake, but they could stop and ask if they are interested or not. And trying to power fast what they talked recently, something like that. So we're Paulson and think
Speaker 6:that I'm still kind of floored by the original that images are a lot more impressionable or impressionable for learning. Um, cause it's not though, because yeah, that, that's, I've never heard that before. So that,
Speaker 3:let me rephrase it because yeah, there are boundary conditions. So this is not always, if you watch too much or a very long animation or video that don't allow you to stop and think a little bit where you're, where you're watching, that's going to be worse than watching a studying image or many study images the give you this time to go back and forth. So they give you the time to, to think for yourself if you are learning correctly or not.
Speaker 4:Super duper fascinating. Um, and we're gonna wrap things up with this, Chris. Um, we're privileged to hear all this lovely information. Um, Zach and I just mentioned that we feel like this is like PD for us. Uh, but if you could say in just three things based on your research, um, and your understanding of learning as it relates to technology and multimedia, what would be three things that you would tell our listeners or any practitioner in the classroom that they can do tangibly to their lesson planning or their lesson creation in regards to multimedia and technology?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, the first thing is that the, um, you have to, it's like a typical message that you give even beyond classrooms. You have to know your audience, you have this perspective, this, um, overview of what your students know. Then start designing a multimedia or any other t technology goal, a tool for, for those students on bearing in mind that as they continue learning, you'll have to change this eh, multimedia designs. So that's leads to the second main point, the most important eh variable that you need to know about students to design any instructional material. And of course multimedia is, what's the words, the prior knowledge that they have is not the same to design a multimedia for novices that to design a multimedia for experts. So some, sometimes much information is going, many different kinds of information is going to be counterproductive for novices, but for experts is going to be challenging and motivating. And the third one, the third one will, would be to, to keep in mind that technology is a tool. And so there are good and bad uses of those. And I will say, tell the teachers that they have to be brave enough to try new technologies, but also they have to be conservative enough to use the old technologies that they've been using and that they feel confident with. For example, a textbook study images, I dunno where PowerPoint versus VR because the most important thing is is is to keep in mind that you're using tools and you need to know the knowledge of your students.
Speaker 4:Perfect. Well, Dr Chris Castro, we thank you very much for your time. This has been a fascinating conversation as ever. Yes.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you Shana.
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Speaker 1:thinking about that last slide deck you prepared for your students.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:For the last video you used in class, how did Dr. Castro affirm or challenge your approach to multimedia in support of learning
Speaker 2:[inaudible]?
Speaker 1:What implications might the transit information effect have on your practice? For us, some key learnings included an understanding of the impact of text, audio and visuals,
Speaker 3:multimedia, multimedia, peaceable, but you learn better when you get a images on verbal information. So ideally you get them into channels auditorily and visually.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And this guidance on staying out of our own way when using media.
Speaker 3:So you have to keep a balance between being interesting but not very much. So the learning, Eh, is not hampered.
Speaker 1:And finally the expert reversal effect got us thinking about how we can craft learning experiences to meet students' needs and avoid cognitive overload.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And always needs less information because if he or she gets too much information, he's going to be overwhelmed by him by this extra information, but a more expert can go away with it. So you have to design differently. If you're designing for novices or x,
Speaker 1:what new considerations did our conversation bring up for you? What resources help you in considering multimedia and cognitive load in your classroom? As always, we want to hear from you, find us on Twitter at course of mind and share your[inaudible]
Speaker 2:thoughts.[inaudible]
Speaker 1:of course of mine is an SD podcast made possible in part by a grant from the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative d a f and advised fund of Silicon Valley Community Foundation. Our producers crib, Sundar, our editor, and the music maestro is Trevor Stout. You can find Shane on Twitter at Shayna v White and you can find Zach at m. Our chase in cripple is at Crypto Sundar, and as always, for more on how the learning sciences can inform your practice. Check out the course of mine Twitter feed at course of mine where you can learn about how other educators have applied learning sciences in the classroom and learn what we're learning.
Speaker 2:[inaudible].